Two Conversations

There were more people than usual at Brindavan today. The bhajans continued without intermission even after Baba had come amongst us and returned to His residence. The cold spell had modified, the sky was clear, the sun bright and warm, and the atmosphere seemed to be charged with a feeling of joy. Happiness was evident in the faces of the devotees wherever one looked. During the morning hours, Baba came out three times, walking amongst us, receiving written notes from petitioners, speaking to this or that person, touching the occasional shoulder or head, giving the grace of vibhuti  [holy ash] to some and the warmth and beauty of His smile to all.

After Baba had gone inside, and while I was walking slowly about the compound enjoying the colorful scene, two men engaged me in conversations. The first was probably in his sixties, grey haired and bearded. After the opening question about where I lived, he spoke about himself. He was a poor man sharing the poverty of many, but he felt he was rich in his mind. In his early days he had been prosperous, but with each additional child his economic position had deteriorated. Now, with nine children, three of whom were boys in college, he was heavily in debt. His salary of 200 rupees was enough to support only one of his college sons; the money to support himself and others of his family was a matter of growing debt.

He had met Baba at Prasanthi Nilayam and had already spoken to Him here at Brindavan. He had come to seek a favor from the Lord. He wanted to keep God in his mind, but could not because the economic problems filled his mind. His petition was that the Lord should solve his economic problems by paying off the debts, and then he would be free of worry and could think of the Lord all day long. He would stay until Baba left Whitfield, hoping that the Lord would grant his request.

That Baba is the Lord Himself, having taken physical body as the Avatar, is accepted as fact by uncounted thousands of individuals. These are of all castes and levels of society. In most instances, as we learn from talking to people, the devotee does not come to Baba because of philosophical or theological reasons. The relationship is direct and personal. The devotee has prayed to Baba as the Lord and the petition has been answered either by a modification of circumstances or by an instantaneous and miraculous change. Some, of course, come to Baba for enlightenment, for a transformation of mind and heart.

The second man with whom I had a conversation appeared to be in his early forties. He was employed as a research scientist at a university. He had children who now lived abroad. He himself had been offered a research position in a foreign country, but was unable to leave India. After these brief remarks about himself the scientist questioned me. What had brought me from so far to this place? What was my principal impression of Baba?

I answered that I had come to India to visit Baba; and that my dominant impression at the moment was how amazing and beyond one’s comprehension it was that in the slight body and charming person of Baba was focused the entire universe both manifest and unmanifest, that what appeared to be a man walking amongst us was an appearance only.

“What was the proof of this?” asked my questioner. Did I have any evidence to back up this feeling as opinion about Baba?

No, I did not have any objective proof to show, I replied. My viewpoint was mostly intellectual, by the use of my reason.

If I would pardon the questioning into what might be personal, the scientist said, did I not have something other than just an intellectual opinion? Was there not something quantitative, something that could be measured? What could be presented as proof that Baba was a focus of divinity?

Well, I responded, I did not have any objective or sensory proof, although I had read in a book that in Baba’s youth some people did secure visual evidence. I did know that at His will, and with just a movement of His hand, Baba had been able, from childhood, to create material things, ranging in variety from natural objects such as fruits to artifacts such as exquisitely worked ornaments of gold and precious gems, and that these things could be carried home and they were as real and durable as anything else in the world.

I also knew that He brought about events even more miraculous in the lives of individuals, such as destruction of the most dreaded diseases, or the preservation of devotees’ lives under the most extraordinary conditions and circumstances. But perhaps most impressive of all to me, since it moved me to the depth of my heart, was the experience of sitting with Baba in interviews. The love and sweetness expressed in His eyes, smile, gesture, and voice was beyond description. And joined with this, was the sublime wisdom of His discourse. The combination was intoxicating with its beauty and intensity, and was surely more than human.

The scientist said that these aspects of Baba were known and deeply appreciated, of course, but they really could not be considered as sufficient to prove divinity. Perhaps there was some direct personal experience that I had not yet spoken of that gave me this idea about Baba’s Divinity? Would I mind this question?

No, I did not mind, I said. There was a subjective factor, no doubt. The fact was that I felt an inner change, a difference in me that had come about since meeting Baba in January of this year.

But, inner changes, said the scientist, come about from a variety of reasons. If one falls in love, one is a changed person for the time being, but surely one would not for this reason say the young lady was divinity?

No, I replied, one would not; that is true. And I also must grant that psychiatry has shown that changes in personality commonly occur. Please let me ask you, what is your viewpoint on Baba?

At my question, the scientist smiled and said that he had not questioned me so that I could question him in turn. His position at the moment was that if he were asked no questions he would tell no lies. He was in a formative stage about Baba and was looking for proof and conviction. And he was interested in penetrating the viewpoint of a foreigner who would come this far to see Baba.

I said, okay, I could understand that; I could also understand that as a research scientist he was accustomed to formulating a hypothesis and then conducting an experiment that would either prove or demolish the theory. And the experiment would be such that others could repeat it and get the same results. Well, how about such an experiment? What sort of objective evidence would be required to prove divinity? What would satisfy my friend, the scientist?

To this question, the scientist did not reply, and I certainly could not blame him. So I continued talking. I accepted the hypothesis, that Baba is a focus of divinity. He has said so Himself, and I most assuredly was not going to reject that statement as a lie or an error and walk away from Baba. My feeling was that He says the truth only, and it was up to me to be a careful observer and find the truth of the matter within myself.

The scientist said that finding a satisfactory answer for oneself within oneself was okay, but what was really needed was proof that could be measured and thus be proof for everyone.

Well, I said, there is an experiment, and there is proof for everyone. Baba Himself has given us the experiment. He says to do what He advises us to do and we will find out for ourselves. Every person can repeat the same experiment. Baba’s instructions for the experiment are to be free of the binding power of desire by channeling all desire to the Lord as a desire to realize Him; to cultivate good qualities by practice, for even bad qualities are the result of practice; and to dedicate every thought, act, and word to God.

The scientist objected that to dedicate one’s life to God would not prove anything. How could one retire to this or another ashram and prove anything? Here it was easy to live in bliss, but proof could only be forged in the fire and torment of full life in the world.

No, no, I exclaimed. Retiring into a sanctuary is not what Baba says. He says that in surrender to the Lord we do our worldly duty as always. But let me change the direction and purpose of the action inwardly so that the same work that was worldly before and done  for the enjoyment of the fruit of the action is now done for the Lord instead.

At this point, the scientist’s family came for him and our conversation was finished. We smiled at each other and said goodbye.

On the way back to the hotel, I told my wife about the two conversations. She said that the significance of the first conversation was self-evident and required no comment, but the second one needed further discussion. Upon talking it over we agreed that had the conversation not been interrupted, I should have suggested to the scientist that he could not really expect anyone to prove to others that Baba was Divine. God outside one’s skin would always be subject to the viewpoint of the observer; and further, there would be the doubt, active or latent, that is ever inherent in duality.

Baba Himself has said that first one must find God in one’s own heart, and then He would be seen as reflected wherever one looked. First comes the inquiry about oneself, first one’s self must be seen, and that is necessary not only for the scientist but also for each one of us.

Why should anyone feel that he must have proof of Baba’s Divinity in order to overcome doubt and have faith in Him? I do not mean to suggest that we should reject the information that Baba is Divine. It is the most important information we have ever heard. But there is no need to wait until one can verify Baba’s Divinity in order to have the strong faith in Him that rests on direct experience.

It is not necessary to place a label of any kind on Baba in order to experience the divine wisdom of His spiritual discourses. Let faith rest on that wisdom which at once becomes our own as we listen to Baba’s words and perceive the truth! Nor do we need to do any waiting in order to know the love and compassion that Baba feels for all who come to Him.

Let faith rest on Baba’s love as we taste its sweetness and at once know its reality! Nor do we first need the label of divinity in order to be convinced that Baba is as a wise father, as a loving mother, as a beloved friend and companion who would never betray us and in whom we can trust with our whole being. Let faith rest on that which we feel so strongly in our hearts.

If we thus put our faith in that which we know directly and personally with heart, such faith will not be shaken by doubt; and we may even find that in wisdom, love, and trust we have already touched upon divinity.

My wife and I also agreed that I should have advised the scientist to put the inquiry about Baba’s divinity to devotees who have known Him since the early days, because such persons would be able to speak of facets of the topic that extended far beyond my extremely limited experience and perception.

~Jack Hislop
Source:  Sanathana Sarathi, Feb. 1969