An Interview with Baba

In December 1978, Sri Sathya Sai Baba gave a group interview to Western devotees. This is the second of two articles.

Devotee: Swami, would you please speak about the Jewish religion?

Swami: See, I don’t know the Jewish religion or Hindu religion or Christian religion. The religion of love—I know that love. I know that religion. There is only one religion, the religion of love. There is only one caste, the caste of humanity. There is only one language, the language of the heart. There is only one God; He is Omnipresent. I know that. There are many names and many forms, many ideas, but the goal is one. God is one. There is no difference. Whatever you like, whatever you love, this is good for you. Good for you, not for him. See, first you start with I, I, I, I. Next, I plus you equals we, we, we. Then we plus He equals only He. Not I, not you. This is my path. This is my religion. There is only one God.

See, there are hands, two hands, five fingers, two legs, one nose—many, many parts are there. There is only one heart. Heart is one. Like this, there are many religions, many diverse paths. This is the world. God is only one heart. In the many religions, names are different, colors are different, stages are different, countries are different. Love is only one. Love is one.

Love is life. There is no difference. The differences are ignorance. Ignorance! This is my God; this is your God. All ignorance. Death is sweeter than the blindness of ignorance. Ignorance is a very bad quality.

Devotee: What is the highest symbol of God?

Swami: The highest symbol of God is love. There is no other symbol. Somebody uses a cross; someone else uses an Om; somebody else, a fire; someone else a moon and star. This is only physical. These are worldly symbols. The spiritual symbol is only one. That is love. There is no form, only experience. Experience! Enjoy it!

Devotee: Is it possible to love somebody and yet not like him?

Swami: See, love means don’t harm. That is love. Saying, “love, love, love”—this is not love. “I love you; I love you”—these are only “words of love.” Using the words of love is not real love. Love is not doing any harm.

Devotee: What about people who come at You with bad personalities and you have to transact with them?

Swami: See, there are only bad personalities, some bad qualities, some bad habits. That is temporary. Inside the heart is a good quality. Anytime there can be a chance for change.

Devotee: Swami, when were the days of Krishna and Rama?

Swami: When was it?

Devotee: How long ago was that?

Swami: Many thousands of years.

Devotee: 5000? 10,000?

Swami: Now Krishna was 5,860 years ago. Rama was not like this. Rama was 20,000 years ago. Between Rama and Krishna were many thousands of years, 15,000 years.

Devotee: Swami, it’s true then that the human race is much older than scientists think?

Swami: See, this science is only below the senses. Adhyatmic (spiritual) science is beyond the senses. There is a conflict. (Modern) science is not complete. The scientist says, “What is this? what is this?” That is their inquiry. Saints say: “What is that? what is that?” “That” means far; “this” means near. Near means below the senses, far means beyond the senses. Below the senses is concentration. Beyond the senses is meditation. There is a middle place or border. The border’s name is contemplation. Concentration, contemplation, and meditation—these are the three steps. Science uses only the mind; only material development. There are (among scientists) ego, jealousy and bad qualities. This is not complete but only pieces, pieces, pieces. All are one: Be alike to everyone. This is the object. Science says, “You are separate; I am separate; you’re separate.” This is not correct. Science is all material, material development.

(To a devotee) What do you want?

Devotee: What do I want? I want your love and guidance in my life, the memory of you.

Swami: See, this is adhyatmic (spiritual). (Here Swami materializes a small gold locket with His picture on it, and He gives it to the devotee.)

Devotee: Thank you, Swami!

Swami: Thank you for your answer.

Devotee: Is it proper to ask you for worldly things?

Swami: Worldly? The body is a worldly thing. Your life is also a worldly thing. This is the first stage or first step. The next stage is some medium state, some Divine state; after that there is the God state. Physically, there is pure work; mentally, logic; after that, soul. Be happy. Physically do work. Mentally do worship. Then wisdom comes. Work, worship and wisdom—these are the three Ws. Take this. The supreme State! There are another three Ws: wine, women and wealth. They are very bad. They will take you down.

Devotee: How can we prevent all this?

Swami: This you do by developing love. When love is developed there are no others. He is mine; he is also mine; he is also mine. In this jealousy has no place.

Devotee: Jealousy is the worst quality of all?

Swami: The worst of all. Fire, fire, fire, fire! A worldly fire can only burn the body. Jealousy burns the mind, the soul, the qualities, all. Fire is better.

Devotee: (laughter)

Swami: The worst is jealousy. Anger and haste (are bad) also. Haste. They want everything quick, quick—quickly this, quickly that. Haste makes waste. Waste makes worry. So don’t be in a hurry.

Devotee: Swami, I am reminded about the discussion of Judas and Christ. Often he is represented as a bad man; in fact, he was anxious for Christ to show his total Self. He was the most educated of the disciples, the wealthiest of the disciples, and yet often we hear that he was…for thirty pieces of silver…as though…

Swami: Yes. Thirty silver coins.

Devotee: It was not greed.

Swami: Oh, no. That is ignorance.

Devotees: He felt he was one of your best disciples.

Swami: I know, though you see, Judas was one of twelve disciples. Very important. This one man Judas was lacking complete confidence in Christ’s teachings. He had little doubt. After he gave the promise to the pundits, he realized, “This is not good! I am very bad!” He was feeling like this. It was all due to his doubts. He did not have complete confidence in Jesus.

Devotee: But Swami, all of us have a little doubt in the sense that there is more to our sadhana.

Swami: See, all are different. The twelve devotees are different. These were near and dear, very close devotees. There was Jesus and there were twelve devotees with him. The twelve devotees were very important men.

Devotee: Swami, how can we avoid sickness?

Swami: There is only one medicine. There are many sicknesses, but the medicine is only one. It is love and devotion. What is the meaning of education? True education?

Devotee: Realizing of the atma

Another Devotee: Character.

Third Devotee: Learning love?

Fourth Devotee: Developing intelligence?

Swami: Spirituality plus morality is equal to education. Education means light of love. The light of love is the real education. Now there is only worldly education, book knowledge—what is the use? Many, many, many scholars with many, many, many ideas but there is no practicality. From platforms where they speak, they are all heroes. In the practical sense they are all zeroes. First be practical! There is no happiness inside—only education, education. People say, “Oh he is a very educated man, a very intellectual man, very intelligent.” Inside he is not happy. What is the use? Self-satisfaction is important, self-satisfaction. First, have self-confidence, next self-satisfaction, then self-sacrifice and then self-realization. This is the complete form of education. Of self-satisfaction, self-confidence is the foundation, the foundation. Without this foundation, there is not a single wall. Self-satisfaction is the wall. Self-sacrifice is the roof. Self-realization is the light. All four are important.

Devotee: How do we achieve all this?

Swami: Do some sadhana. What does sadhana mean?

Devotee: Some spiritual practice.

Swami: Action. Sadhana means practice, spiritual practice: japa (recitation of the name), archana (worship), meditation, bhajan, or some work, or study some teachings. This is sadhana.

Devotee: At times Swami, I have doubts.

Swami: What?

Devotee: I have the good fortune and the blessing to know of your presence, often more in America than here. I often experience you in my heart.

Swami: Yes yes, I know, I understand. That is your confidence, your bhakti, your devotion. You experience there more than here.

Devotee: When I first came to you, I asked for an interview, and in meditation you said to me, “Yes, but I give you interviews all the time.”

Swami: That is not my power; that is your power. This is your devotion, your love. I am only a servant. Whatever you like, I am ready. I am always your servant.

Devotee: Could your powers become ours?

Swami: Yes, I will give them to you. I am your servant. What is a servant? You say, “Go to kitchen, go here, go there.” He must go. I am only a servant. You only have to pray, only pray.