Immortality

Sai: (At the start of an interview with a group of Western­ers) Follow the master, the inside Atma, the super-conscious. Life is a challenge, fight to the end. Life is a song, sing it. Life is divine, realize it. Life is character. There is one path, complete life.

Sai: (to a young Westerner about age 16) What do you want?

Boy: Liberation.

Sai: What is liberation?

Boy: (after some hesitation) The end of the path.

Sai: Immortality is the meaning. Removal of immorality is the only way to immortality. Who are you? Not the outside, not the body. Who are you? Inquire. Love is everything. Expansion love, not selfish love. Selfless love of the Self; not ego love. All are ladies. None are men. Lady is weakness, not strength. The Sanskrit word for lady has the meaning of weakness; no strength at all. All humans are so. Hate, anger, jealousy, sorrow. Men may better control these, but their inside feeling is the same. Only God is above feeling. All others are equally affected. God is the only male person. In a women’s college, in a play, men characters may appear on the stage, but the male cast are women dressed as men. The world is a women’s college. There are just male roles. Inside all are the same, all women.

Life is a cosmic stage on which we are the actors. In one scene an actor may take one role, and in other scenes different roles. Creation means change. Nothing is unchanging. Every moment there is change. How can these changing things give bliss to persons who are also changing? Your bliss can be made permanent only by immortality, no change. Scientists experiment today; tomorrow their findings are outmoded. The world goes on overriding itself. That which science knows is microscopic compared to the immensity of that which is to be known.

The atom: Without this, nothing is made. With atoms all things are produced. Atoms together also make the moon. Atoms are active and alert, never inert. How, therefore, can the moon be called inert? The entire universe is active because of atoms. From where does this energy come? Electrons, neutrons, protons—from where does this science arise? Scientists ask how is it that these things go on, but do not ask, ‘Why?’ The answer to ‘why’ leads you to the divine. Basic energy is shakthi. From this basic energy all is derived. Where from is this atom power? It is divine power.

Hislop asked the question, ‘What is a study circle?’ It is not just reading books. ‘Circle, study circle’ means taking a point and each person discussing what is the meaning of the point to them. Like a round-table conference. Each person gives his point of view, and finally values are derived from this. If there is just reading, there is doubt. But if each one gives his view, doubts will be answered. The topic is viewed; the study circle looks at different facets. It is like a diamond with its different facets, but there is one facet that is flat, the top facet, and from this all can be viewed. To discover the top facet is the task of the study circle. Swami’s talks may be taken, or other scriptures. Take a point. Have everyone think about it and discuss it and come to the final point where doubt is decreased. If only one person reads, there will be only one meaning. All misunderstandings, all points of views-after these are brought out, the study circle members will get confidence. There is no doubt of this. If each one only reads, this may go on for a year or two, then an allergy to reading develops. Centers must have study circles in this way, and none will note the passage of time. Each one listens eagerly and many will give their point of view. The Bible, the Koran, the Gita, Swami’s books may be used. What is wanted is a study circle; rotating. Each one must be given a chance.

A Scientist Visitor: (father of the 16-year-old boy earlier questioned by Swami) Many fools do not make one wise man.

Sai: Only those who are intelligent will think to bother with a study circle. They may be fools in other matters, per­haps. But we have here the example of a big doctor who does operations, but who is a fool in bandaging, reliant upon his nurse to do a good job. Life means such a mixture. A man with a dual mind is half-blind. Everyone is half-blind in some matters. Only he who knows the divine is an expert, first class in one study. But in general, people have no common sense. But common sense is necessary in daily life, and that is what counts. Each subject is only one road; but mastery, the develop­ment of common sense is a spiritual effort. In a house an elder is not respected because junior studied some subjects, but common sense requires that junior’s attitude to the elder be respectful. Common sense is required. Humility and love are divine. If you become the master of a subject and develop anger and ego, these are enemies of the spiritual path.

Scientist: But it is commonly agreed that science is of great value.

Sai: Up to a certain level, science helps. It is of service to mankind. But Baba knows that which science does not know. Baba is at a level that is beyond reach of the senses. Not all that he knows can be brought to a lower level. Too much current burns out the bulb. Capacities must be known. Swami’s power is given according to capacity. Baba is the servant. He waits at the door of the shrine room to give you what you want. To be the servant of His devotees is Swami’s duty. There is no place for any ego.

A small example: On a globe-map of the world, America is not very big. California is just a small place. Hislop’s house is just a dot; and Hislop himself is not even visible. For a person so small as to be invisible, so tem­porary in the expanse of the universe, to live with ego is shame­ful. Any person with ego is a disgrace. If you expand your idea of yourself to be God, then there is no reason, no place for an ego. And if you shrink yourself to conform to your relative stature in the vast universe, there is also no place for ego. The lowest or the highest, it does not matter. It is the middle that has pressure.

Hislop: From Swami’s description of the conversation to be accomplished in a study circle, the circle should be limited to about 10 people.

Sai: Why? It could be 100 people.

Hislop: But Swami, not even one point would be able to get around such a big circle.

Sai: Not so. Of the group here, only the scientist and Hislop are asking questions. Not everyone in the study circle will be able to say.

Hislop: Oh. I see that situation.

Scientist: Here is this object. I spoke about Swami in Copenhagen, and some scientists who were interested made this object. What it is cannot be seen. The scientists know, but it cannot be seen.

Sai: It is Baba’s task to transform peoples’ hearts.

Hislop: They are trying to subject Baba to a test! (the scientist and his associate had for several years past been trying to get Swami to subject Himself to wires and electronic measurements and so on).

Sai: Baba can transform the scientists, but scientists can transform themselves only by getting into the spiritual life. It is only physics in which they are engaged. Philosophy starts where physics ends. Physics is useful, but it is only information. Spiritual life is transformation.

Scientist: Baba does miracles to shake up disbelievers.

Sai: Baba does it for His own sake. Let the scientists come, and I will transform them. The spiritual world is beyond the material. Material things are involved in sorrow. Have great scientists compassion and a peaceful mind? No. They worry and worry. What is needed is to unite spiritual life and worldly life. Spiritual life is developed first, and then live a spiritual life in the world, a dual life. Spiritual life is quality, and worldly life is quantity.

Scientist: It is of value to let scientists test you.

Sai: What is the value?

Scientist: If they can be convinced that the miracles are valid by scientific controls and standards, then belief in you will follow.

Sai: If they believe, what will the world gain? Their worldly desires will increase since their understanding is so poor.

Scientist: It takes time. Science consolidates its gains only gradually.

Sai: Even they do not understand their own science fully enough. It is good that they go slowly.

Source: Conversations with Bhagavan Sri Sathya Sai Baba